I don't know how to express the importance of this passage. It may be one of the most significant sentences in the Bible. I know that is a dangerous thing to say 'cause every passage is significant, but...
The incarnation is what is being described here. There are several key thoughts mentioned here: flesh, dwelling, glory, One and Only, grace and truth. Take a few moments and contemplate each of these words. How do you understand these words? Give us some of your thoughts in the "comments" section of this blog.
Take a moment and read Philippians 2:5-11 and read the Apostle Paul's description of the incarnation. In the "comments section," describe for us how you understand the incarnation. How would you describe it differently to someone who does not have a "Christian" background?
your partner in the gospel,
Pastor Paul
P.S. For a cup of coffee at the GROUNDS FOR MISSIONS coffee shop @ HOPE: What is another way to translate the word "dwelling?" In what ways does this word have Old Testament connections or illusions?
Posts
The word dwelling can also mean to live or settle with us(inhabited). My brother made his dwelling among us when he moved in with us for 6 months last year.
ReplyDeleteSo Christ was with the people in person, where as in the old testament, God was with them in the tabernacle and in the temple where God dwelled with His people. God wanted the people to make a tabernacle for Him to dwell among the people.
I'm going to hold my comments on the questions and let someone else post first . . . !!!
ReplyDeleteI'm from a small town in Nebraska (1,240 peope), which happens to be the Swedish capital of Nebraska . . . Stromsburg. We are known as the Swedes. And the Peterson Swedes in Stromsburg are known as "talkers", so I need to work on my listening skills . . . just ask my wife!
We are known for being "loud" talkers as well, and the saying goes . . . "You can always tell a Peterson (loud voice), but you can't tell him much".
This passage (Phil 2) brings up many thoughts to my mind.
ReplyDeleteFirst and formost is our place in this world. Christ made himself nothing. Compared to God we are nothing. Yet we are something because Christ chose to become like us to save us. So we are loved by our God so much so that he took our place.
Second we are to be like him in not striving of equality. How many times in my life have I made me the god and not God. By putting my wants and desires ahead of His wants and desires. By serving me and not him.
Also we are to be like Christ and choose death if it is required of us. Get kind of scary when you think of it. Like Sam Elliot (sp) mentioned on Sunday. If put to it would God give me the strength to die for him. It would have to come from him as I would not have it on my own.
So as for your direct questions maybe the best way to explain it to the unchurched is to love them just like Christ loves them.
Oh and Quinn. You even type loud. Just kidding I have enjoyed reading your comments. Don't hold back.
Mark
Thanks guys! Enjoying your thoughts...
ReplyDeleteQuick correction: It was Jim Elliot I referred to in my message on Sunday. "He is not fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose."
Quinn -- your thoughts on "dwelling" are pretty close to winning the cup of coffee...but I am still looking an alternative and accurate translation for the word "dwelling." You are very close!
PFKnight
In non-Bible words, I understand the Incarnation something like the Son leaving home on a mission for the Father, but before he goes he leaves his wallet on the dresser. His wallet contains his check book, his debit card and credit cards and most importantly his ID, which gives him direct access to literally anything he needs. The only thing he takes with him his cell phone so he can talk to the Father when he needs to, which, as it turns out, is every day.
ReplyDeleteHe doesn't change who he is. He is still and always remains the Son. He simply chooses not to access any of the power to which his Sonship gives him the right. (Jn. 5:19: “I tell you the truth, the Son can to nothing by himself.”) He heads out the door totally dependant on the Father to give him what he needs when he needs it. Everything that the Son does on his mission for the Father is really the Father doing it through him because the Son left all his own power at home.
When the Son became incarnate as Jesus he was still the Son, but incarnate as Jesus of Nazareth he did not have any supernatural power. That almost sounds heretical, but it has to be true. Emptying himself of his power didn’t change who he was. It changed how he lived and fulfilled the Father’s will. He lived like we are called to live: as a finite man totally dependant on the Father to act on his behalf to work the Father’s will for him and through him.
Inhabited, tabernacled, I'm running out of words?! I hope you're looking for a translation in English?!!!
ReplyDeleteGood analogy Dana . . . I like how you put that into words.
When I think of these words being used about the incarnation in verse 14, I think of Christ as being one of us, with us (through His H.S. now), forgiving and loving, but I also think of Him as coming as the "One and Only"- God, full of truth, and a God that is no different in the N.T. than the O.T.
There are days when I error more on the grace side and think of Christ's time on earth as only love and forgiveness . . . which is what he came for, but He is still a God of truth and expects nothing less of us than that. And we are still called in to FULL obedience at His will, not by our comfort and security.
Paul says in Philippians that our attitude needs to be the same as Christ's - to do God's will . . . which means obedience.
Quinn -- I'd like to buy you a cup of coffee...tabernacled was the word I was looking for.
ReplyDeleteDana, could I ask, when you say he surrendered or emptied himself of all powers. How do you account for his miraculous? Do you really think he emptied himself of "all supernatural powers?"
PFKnight
Paul:
ReplyDeleteYes, I believe that Jesus emptied himself of all his power. Not his identity. He couldn’t change who he was. He remained the Son, but I believe that’s the essential profound humility of the Incarnation: he emptied himself and took our form and lived dependant on the Father in all respects. Any power he had between his conception and resurrection was the Father’s power working for him. I believe that’s the meaning of Phil. 2:7 – “but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.”
This passage to me is pretty clear that it’s the Father doing the works:
[25] Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these bear witness of Me. [26] "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep. [27] "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; [28] and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. [29] "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. [30] "I and the Father are one."
[31] The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. [32] Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" [33] The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God." [34] Jesus answered them, "Has it not been written in your Law, 'I said, you are gods'? [35] "If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), [36] do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'? [37] "If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; [38] but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father." John 10:25-38
He clearly claimed to be God and that’s why they wanted to stone him, yet he did not claim the works he was doing as his own, but that they were of the Father. He was speaking of his identity with the father and did not at that time claim power for himself, but pointed to the Father at work.
I believe that’s why it says in Philippians 2:
[9] Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
[10] that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
[11] and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
The “therefore” describes God’s response to Jesus ultimate emptying himself of his power, entrusting himself to the Father and subjecting himself to the Father’s will. He didn’t change his identity, he emptied himself and changed his form.
That’s how I understand it.
Understanding that to be the meaning of his emptying himself informs how I perceive God’s ability to work for and through me. This is an important verse:
[19] Then the disciples came to Jesus in private and asked, "Why couldn't we drive it out?"
[20] He replied, "Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you." (Matthew 17:19-20)
Jesus didn’t say, “You couldn’t drive it out because you’re not God.” He said, “Because you have so little faith.”
Even when he was being arrested Jesus said, “Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? Matthew 26:53 [NIV]
He didn’t say, “Do you think I cannot at once smite these people to oblivion?” If there was an action to be taken it would be that Father who would take it. I Peter 2:23 says, “…When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly.”
He lived his entire life by faith as we are called to.
Again, that's how I understand it.
dy
You had to know it wouldn't be a short answer.
ReplyDelete:-)
Wow! You guys are good! I really enjoy the analogy of a Guy traveling with nothing except a means of communication. That made sense to me, and I am a believer. I love how you all reference your thinking with Biblical examples. That is definitely something I am striving for.
ReplyDeleteWhen I think of:
flesh-- I think of able to break down, temporary, weak, but also capable of doing work necessary on earth.
dwelling-- living space
glory-- sometimes I use this interchangeably with "credit" or something due -- like "give God the glory". Also something like fame -- but I need to be careful that it is being famous before God and not before humans that I am concerned with...
One and Only-- Jesus - interesting because we have the Trinity and then the One.
grace-- such a profound and intangible word. Something given by God and without it, Salvation is impossible.
truth-- what I'm striving to know more about to become closer to God.
It really is pretty crazy how the plan of God unfolds. People can't just make this stuff up. There is only one way for Salvation and Heaven and God receiving all of the glory and worship and that is through this plan that is still being unfolded. One thing my Bible study talked about was how God is in constant praise and worship to Himself. So everything He does (and everything we should do) is to do that -- for his total and complete worship.
I am curious how others of you view the incarnation and Jesus' emptying himself (Philippians 2:7). In NIV is says; made himself nothing. Personally I prefer the New American Standard here: He emptied himself.
ReplyDeleteBut the question is what did he empty himself of, and how much of whatever it is did he empty himself of, and then finally; what does that mean for us?
PFK
P.S. I will be posting again soon -- the post will be about John the Baptist.